- Welcome to CYBER5, where security experts and leaders answer five burning questions on one hot topic in actual intelligence enterprise. Topics include adversary research and attribution, digital executive protection, supply chain risks, brand reputation and protection, disinformation, and cyber threat intelligence. I'm your host Landon Winkelvoss, co-founder of Nisos a Managed Intelligence Company™. In this episode, I talk with head of People Strategy at Nisos, Magen Gicinto. We talk about the Great Resignation that's happening in the work environment during the COVID pandemic and how to realign People Strategy to still recruit the best talent. We further discuss the aspects of recruiting the best talent and how to satisfy employees' ever-changing motivations. Finally, we discuss startup culture in the technology sector and People Strategy changing over time with emphasis on different expertise and specialists, coming together in a high-performance organization. Stay with us. Magen, welcome to the show. Would you mind sharing a little bit about your background with our listeners, please?

- Yeah, thanks Landon. Yeah, my name is Magen Gicinto. I've been with Nisos a little less than a year, I was hired in January of 2021, and I have about 15 years of experience in human resources. I started my career in the intelligence community in federal government, and then moved over to a large corporate company doing human resources and employee development. And now I'm here at Nisos, kind of building out our People Strategy with the teams. I'm really excited to be here, thank you.

- Thank you Magen, for joining the show, we've always wanted to do a, an episode, certainly, on how to recruit talent, and certainly the importance of recruiting talent. And, you know, anytime an organization hires their first human resources hire, it's certainly an important hire because you're bringing on somebody to really bring together a strategy around recruiting people, and that certainly has a lot of implications for the organization, and we couldn't be more happier with yourself. Yeah, I appreciate everything you've done, and we're really interested to share the perspectives. And so, kind of like, on that same note, over the last 18 months, you know, we've certainly seen a, almost a war on talent that, you know, it's in the media as the Great Resignation, and you know, dealing with, certainly in the technology sector, dealing with talent recruitment, I guess, just for, you know, listeners' background, you mind sharing a little bit of background of like, what is the Great Resignation and certainly what we're kind of dealing with in terms of talent recruitment.

- Yeah, it's certainly an interesting topic and something we're watching closely, kind of, in the human resources industry, and a lot of people are talking about it. So, you know, in 2020, during the height of the pandemic, employees had a lot of time to evaluate their jobs and spent time really thinking about what matters to them both personally and professionally. And then also, you know, what motivates them. So, employees who would have otherwise left their jobs during that time, given that we were in the middle of a pandemic, really stayed put and didn't make job changes or career changes. But now, as we're kind of crawling out of the pandemic, or it feels a little bit more safe again, people are moving jobs, and that's where you're seeing this great turnover or this Great Resignation. You know, if you look at the stats published by Department of Labor, voluntary turnover dipped significantly in 2020, but in early 2021, it jumped higher than ever before with 4 million people leaving jobs in April 2021 alone.

- Our employees generally have the mentality of, I don't need to go back to the office. Therefore, I'm going to find a new job that allows me to have better work-life balance. Is it a combination of everything? I mean, do they care about the company's mission or is it really just about finding balance and their ability to, to work from home?

- Yeah, I think it's all of those things, you know, a good number of employees realized, during that time, they were in jobs that were maybe unfulfilling or in companies with unhealthy cultures. And, you know, you pair that with monthslong of, you know, uncharted, new-life responsibilities, you know, employees, I felt included, we were caregivers and teachers, and kids were at home and, and many people started evaluating, you know, their loyalties. So, where we came from a culture of people being very loyal to the organization, and that was something that we, we focused on, now, they were really looking at, OK, my loyalty to my job or my loyalty to my family, and thinking about their desire to stay in their current jobs. So, they're looking for new paths, and they want to integrate work and life responsibilities. And they want to work for employers who support those values. Just like before the pandemic, we still want opportunities for career advancement and building our skillsets. But employees are looking for more purpose and they want to have that impact to the organization, they want to add value, and they want to have fulfilling work and enjoy the work that they're doing. And then, to your point, the desire for flexibility in their jobs. Employees aren't buying, when employers say that the work has to be done in an office, you know, a hundred percent. Now, let me say, there are some positions out there that do require you to be in the office. But I think many of us figured out that job function can be remote and can be done at home. Industries like ours, you know, we're not seeing as much turnover in experience, but we're seeing more turnover in our experts. You know, some of our most valued employees are being poached by competitors or organizations that are building out their companies and their infrastructure. And, you know, some of our experts are also realizing, you know, that they have opportunities to go work for those other companies as well.

- Pulling that thread a little bit, you've worked with a lot of different organizations, right? You come from the intelligence community, which is a, you know, probably a team of, you know, tens of thousands. You've come from businesses that certainly are less than 10,000. Yeah. And certainly now, you know, you've joined us, in regards to, we're company of less than a hundred and growing. So there's a lot of different scale there. When it comes to the People Strategy and those losing and gaining of teammates and the times that we're in, you know, starting off there, what's the balance between, you know, support for the organization and support to the teammates? Because I think that that certainly plays a role in, certainly, how people look and view all the different opportunities.

- Yeah. Yeah. Great question. I mean, the organization is our people, and we should be focusing on people strategies that create the best employee experience so that we can keep our best people and recruit great talent. Understanding what our employees value and what motivates them is key, you know. Thinking out how you can support employees, how you can show empathy, care, responsiveness, provide and model. So, as people leaders, we should be modeling that work-life integration. During this time, as we continue through, you know, the pandemic, through this Great Resignation, we are navigating uncharted waters, and we're asking our employees to come alongside us during these new and unprecedented times. So, when we're asking for their trust during this process, we should be, you know, making sure that we're showing that mutual respect and trust in return. Companies know that a better employee experience means better results. So, teams are more successful when the organization's strategies and structure and culture is aligned. You know, so when we talk about, you know, the balance of support to the organization and support to teammates, we have to understand where we are as a company. So, you know, during the infancy stages of a startup, you know, where Nisos has been, there, may be, you know, little consistency. You're focused on doing what you can to source and hire the best talent while outsourcing some other services. And then, once you move past the infancy stages and start growing, your attention really moves to creating that balance between the organization and support to teammates. And so, you know, you are ensuring consistency and you're creating an employee life cycle for your team and for the people that, you know, work for you. So, you move your people strategies from a sole focus on talent acquisition very early on, to supporting a culture of employee development and things like growth, rewards and recognition, and what we talked about, finding opportunities for them to have fulfilling work. And then, you know, once you have that balance, you've created high-performing teams that sets us up for organizational growth and results.

- So, when we talk about taking the realities of the Great Resignation.

- Mmhmm

- At the same time, we're talking about also, you know, creating high-performing teams, like continuing to create high performing teams. I think that anytime you're a company of less than 20, and you've got to do whatever it takes to get that talent, some would argue, like, that small team is, there's that such focus of executing at such a high level that that can't be maintained. I'm sure you don't agree with that. I don't agree that. I think the there's certainly ways that, that you have to change, certainly, to always be a high-performing team at such greater scale. So, like taking the mind of that greater scale, how do you create the best employee experience in this new environment?

- Yeah. Especially in this new environment, challenge the playbook, challenge the formulas, you know, the way we did things, the processes and systems, the way we did things before and how we supported our employees, it's changing, and it's going to continue to change. There's not a day that goes by where, you know, there's not something new that pops up, or there's an industry, you know, change or a new requirement. And so, things are going to continue to change. And we want to remind ourselves and remember that the work matters. You know, we can do a lot of things. We can do a lot of things that we knew how to do as part of our playbook and formulas, but we first need to make sure that our employees are challenged and fulfilled by the work that they're doing and that they want to be doing the work. So, you know, some questions that I would throw out to, you know, our employees, and this is for our people leaders and for coaches and for our mentors, is, are you helping them figure out how they work? Like, what do they enjoy doing? Do you know if your employees are challenged and find purpose and value in the work? Are you discussing their motivation? And if you're not doing so already, you know, have career conversations, talk about their career development, what they want to learn, how they want to develop and grow. Employees want to have clear goals. They want to have, you know, a target. They want to know how they can be performing well. So, set those goals, be consistent in performance management, and then spend time understanding what obstacles are in the way of them performing at their best so you can help them be successful. And when you create that rapport and that trust and that continuous and ongoing feedback, that allows that relationship to grow. And then, when they do have challenges or, you know, maybe the work isn't for them, or they're not having the best employee experience in this new environment, they can come to you and they can have that conversation so that you and the employee can work together instead of the next day, they are resigning, and then they're part of that Great Resignation. So, have the conversation with them, build that trust and rapport.

- Let's take that from like, the very first building blocks, right. We were looking at recruiting in the early days. It was really about who's ultimately going to grind and hustle, and certainly who's going to work quite a bit, you know, and ultimately have, at the same time, have upside. And I think that, like, there's certainly part of that, that still exists probably even today. But I guess at the very early stages, what are the capabilities that you're looking for when you have those first calls?

- Yeah, yeah. I really like to, you know, get to know the person. So, I am looking for talent who can create value and can deliver on our objectives. So, as we've, you know, mentioned before, or as we've already discussed, employees want to have purpose in the work and know that they're making a difference. So, the neat thing about working for a startup organization is you have this great opportunity to create influence and create organizational decisions, add value, and influence those company decisions. And so, that's what I'm looking for, you know, in potential employees. So, I look for values that drive organizational success. So, our core values at Nisos drive the way we work, we, the way we act and the way we communicate. So, I want to help attract talent and select the best talent that meets, meets those business needs, that closes, you know, skills gaps. So, you know, early on in the beginning, it was like you said, trying to hire, you know, the right talent for what we needed. So, now it's about looking at, okay, where are skills gaps and, and identifying employees that can add value and close some of those skills gaps. And then also looking for employees who value differences and perspectives. That's one of our core values, is having those diverse perspectives. And it's really important for us to make sure that we're looking for candidates that bring those differences. We also are looking for employees that look for ways to be innovative and creative. So, look for new and better ways for the organization to be successful. And then, what I really look for, too, is kind of that growth mindset. So employees to, you know, tackle new challenges and then use, you know, successes and failures as learning opportunities. And so, it's important to have those conversations early on about like, tell me about what you value in an organization. So we understand, you know, what's important to them and that way when they start at me, so it's, you know, we can make sure that we are giving them opportunities and work that, you know, is fulfilling to them, that gives them purpose and aligns with their values as well.

- I think that's certainly very insightful. I think when you're early on in a company, I think it's always about vision. A question I guess, is where does that vision kind of fit and how do you bring that vision and always keep that alive, at the same time to ultimately, like you said, having skill gaps and align more there, at a sustained pace. How do you kind of keep that alive?

- Yeah. So, you know, making sure that we understand where our gaps are in the business, where we need to fill roles, how we can best partner together across the organization, I think is, you know, valuable. And, you know, so that's where I believe in bringing teams together in the talent acquisition and recruiting process, because we sometimes don't know what we don't know. And, you know, I, I tell people all the time, like we all have our blind spots, like, things we tend to focus on based on our own comforts and our past experience, how we've done things before. This happens both personally, right, and professionally in organizations. It can happen in teams and departments. And so, we want to focus on bringing those teams together, creating that value, understanding where there are gaps, understanding where we can hire the right talent to support each other as well as, you know, business objectives. And so, I like to bring teams together because others can point out what we may be missing. You know, there's wisdom in teams. They're more likely, you're more likely to have a complete picture than any one single view. And so, by bringing the departments together through the process, it helps us also avoid silo organizations. And yes, we're still relatively small, but it's very easy to only focus on our own departments and own team and then kind of have that silo vision. And so, when we bring teams together, when we bring the organization together, it creates more alignment. It helps us as employees understand what's going on in the business. And it helps us, you know, support our teammates.

- You couldn't have characterized that more appropriately, right. I think when you're looking at employees, you know, one through 20, these are teammates that are not only gonna run through walls, but they're going to be able to not only execute, they're probably going to be able to sell. They're probably going to be able to do their own marketing to some degree, right, like, I mean, it is really a utility-player atmosphere at the core. And as things grow, things become more departmental, right? You start to have a sales and marketing team that's the go-to market and strategy. You have the developer team, you have the services team, you have a customer success team, you have an admin function. I mean, you have a lot of different capabilities that are now coming, but what you're really getting there is specialists, right? You're specializing in one aspect of business and bringing that expertise to really grow, if not done properly, it certainly leads to silence, right. So, from that People Strategy perspective, how do you partner with different parts of the business with the intent of bringing it all together? Does that start at the interview process? Would it, at like the recruitment process? Does that come across in professional development? How do you bring that together in the recruitment process so that departments become more cohesive?

- I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head. Like very early on, you know, your employees are wearing many hats and, you know, you might be doing some general office functions as well as product development and, you know, engineering. And so, you know, you, you have this culture of kind of everyone having their hands in a lot of different things. And then you're moving over to where you have more specialization then, and more defined roles. And so, you know, that's where I do believe in making sure that we avoid moving into a siloed organization because we have such a great culture where everyone does know the business and has had the, you know, their hands in the business. So, creating kind of the best of both worlds, if you will, so, making sure that you are working together, you're collaborating, you're communicating, you're understanding what the other, you know, areas of the business are doing, understanding where your gaps are, where you can support each other. And then, as you're looking at, you know, do we need to hire for that role or hire for that gap, then coming together, working together, you know, to identify what that person, who that person looks like and what they will be doing. And so that's where it's really important to make sure that you're getting different perspectives from different areas of the business to help you understand the role that you're recruiting for. And then, moving forward, you know, past the recruitment stage, I think making sure that we're creating an environment that really looks at the different motivators of our employees. So, post-recruitment, it's really important to have a successful onboarding experience for our employees. You know, we talk about that's Great Resignation. It's very easy for an employee to start, you know, their first couple weeks, and if we don't have a successful onboarding for the employee, where they feel immediately integrated into the work and they understand their purpose and they understand the value that they're going to bring to the organization, we could very easily lose them in those first couple weeks. It's very easy for an employee to say, you know, like, I was sold a different bill of goods, you know, during the recruitment process. And so, we want to make sure that what we're telling them in the recruitment process, and then, also once they come on board as an employee, that is aligned and they have a great experience. And then it goes beyond that as well. So, you know, post-recruitment, post-onboarding, we want to create this environment that incentivizes our employees, where we understand what motivates them. So, it's about creating that employee experience that we've discussed. So, our strategies at Nisos are to provide, you know, compensation and benefits with growth opportunities and to create an environment where team members feel inspired by and enabled to execute on our missions and goals, and that they feel highly satisfied with their work. So, it's about understanding your employees, having those conversations with them, understanding that employees are at different life stages and we all have different motivators depending on our life stage. You know, if you're new to the professional workforce, you're at a different life stage, you're at a life stage where you have a family, maybe your life stage is, you're a couple years away from retirement. Your motivations are going to change depending on your life stage. And so, we want to make sure that we are understanding their life stages and creating recognition and incentives around compensation, benefits, growth and development, and their work environment to support those different life stages. So, one of the other things that we are starting to talk about at Nisos, too, because we are, past that infancy-stage work, creating this employee life cycle, we're focusing on career development and growth. We also understand that employees are focused on their personal and professional growth. And we know that our talent will be looking for opportunities outside of Nisos, and that's okay too. So, good people leaders understand when employees take better opportunities, but great people leaders expect employees to take other opportunities. And we want to support them that while they're working at Nisos, we are giving them as much as they can for their own growth and development to then go and, you know, knock it out of the park somewhere else. So, it's something that's really important to us.

- Magen, I can't thank you enough for being such a great teammate, not only to all of our employees and teammates, but certainly the business as well. This has been very valuable, and I'm very grateful that folks like yourself and experts like yourself joined the team to bring Nisos to the next evolution, and I can't thank you enough. For the latest subject-matter expertise around managed intelligence, please visit us at www.nisos.com. There, we feature all the latest content from Nisos experts on solutions ranging from supply chain risk, adversary research and attribution, digital executive protection, merger and acquisition diligence, brand protection and disinformation, as well as cyber threat intelligence. A special thank you to all Nisos teammates who engage with our clients to conduct some of the world's most challenging security problems on the digital plane and conduct high-state security investigations. Without the value the team provides day in, day out, this podcast would not be possible. Thank you for listening.